"I don't think France is responsible for the Vel d'Hiv..."
"I think that generally speaking if there are people responsible, it's those who were in power at the time. It's not France..."
"I consider that France and the Republic were in London during the occupation and that the Vichy regime was not France..."
This view was ultimately held by the Fourth Republic that replaced the gouvernement provisoire de la République française (GPRF). That Petain's Vichy regime was an illegal government and not the legitimate government of France. The two factions that would come to form the Comité français de Libération nationale (French Committee of National Liberation) were based in London (de Gaulle) and in Algiers (Giraud). That said, did Le Pen say anything wrong here?
Charles de Gaulle's GPRF has been seen as the legitimate government of France after the collapse of the Third Republic. The establishment of the Vichy government has been considered illegal on several grounds.
First issue was the absence and non-voluntary abstentions of a number of Senators and Deputies as well as coercive manipulations by pro-Nazi Pierre Laval (subsequently executed via firing squad for treason by the GPRF). This puts the vote granting powers to Marshal Philippe Pétain, in question and makes Petain's assumption of power suspect.
The second issue is that parliament couldn't delegate it's powers without control of it's use. In effect, that is what it did when it granted full powers to Marshall Petain. The vote essentially gave Petain dictatorial powers and was the end of the Third Republic if it wasn't already dead.
Third, was that the constitution made it impossible to question the regime's republican form. A form utterly rejected by Petain's French State.
Essentially the Third Republic didn't just collapse under the weight of the Wehrmacht assault and Hitler's demands, it was dissolved under dubious circumstances. Vel d'Hiv happened under the governance of the French State, not the Third Republic, and certainly not the GPRF that the Fourth Republic grew out of.
So if we take the view that the Fifth and Fourth Republics were successors to the GPRF, which carried the torch of republic after the dissolution of the Third Republic, the yes, like Le Pen said, France and the Republic were in London.
Look at this way, in Star Wars, the New Republic founded after the Empire's defeat in Epi. VI was a continuation of the Galactic Republic. Taking the view the Left has on this, is akin to holding the New Republic responsible for the atrocities carried out by the Empire. It's the same as saying the New Republic was responsible for Jedha City's destruction as well as planet Alderaan's.
Where does that put the Fifth Republic though? You ask me, tracing it's linage and republican tradition to the Fourth Republic, to the GPRF, and ultimately to the Third Republic, the Fifth Republic has the responsibility of bringing to justice the criminals of the French State that perpetuated it's wrongs against the citizens of the Third Republic. If the survivors of Vel d'Hiv were French citizens, or Jews that fled to France for safety from the Third Reich, then as successors to the Third Republic, the current Fifth Republic has the responsibility to drag those French State perpetrators to justice. Not because the Fifth Republic had anything to do with the State's atrocities, but because by extension the Fifth Republic is responsible to the people who were under the protection of the Third Republic.
Since the French State doesn't exist, then that responsibility is to pursue the individual perpetrators. Once they are all dead, that's it, they're dead, the French State is dead, the officials of the State that carried out the atrocities are dead, there's no one else to come after. Time to turn the page on that chapter of history.
I find it funny that adopting the view of one of the few of the utterly broken and demoralized Third Republic who wanted to continue the fight against Hitler, makes you a Nazi. Say what you will about Charles De Gaulle, that he was an ego maniac who quite possibly had a messiah complex when it came to France, who compared himself to Jeanne d'Arc. That he was hard headed and got along just barely enough with Roosevelt and Churchill to fight Hitler and Mussolini. The fact remains that he never gave up the fight against the fascists and he was able to ultimately rally the various French colonies, and French nationals who still wanted to fight into a single unified body, the Free French. The fact remains that he, along side General Henri Giraud, formed the Comité français de Libération nationale, and later formed the GPRF when the Free French 2nd Armored Division lead the charge into Paris and liberated the city from the fascist's army, the Wehrmacht.
And now all of a sudden, his views are Nazi views? The man who commanded the French Army's 4e Division cuirassée, one of the few French Army units winning victories against the Wehrmacht, the man who later went on to continue the war against the Nazis when his demoralized country no longer had the stomach for it. The guy who was on the hitlist of actual fascist regimes. His views are now "Nazi" and "fascist" views? Yeah ok...
General Charles de Gaulle, for all his personal flaws, has done more to fight the actual Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei than any of these black block "Antifa" Storm Divisions ever have with their rioting and terrorist acts they carry out against their imaginary Nazis. So excuse me while I laugh my head off when a Leftists cries "Nazi" at someone who voices a Gaullist point of view on an issue. By the time Germany was invaded the GPRF's Armée française de la Libération fielded over 1 million troops and marched right into Germany along side the British and the Americans, and if we include the Normandie-Niemen squadron that de Gaulle created, along side the Soviets. The first of the Western Allies to reach the Rhine and the Danube was the French 1st Armored Division. The French 1st Army also clashed with the Nazi Waffen Schutzstaffel (not the German Wehrmacht regular army, but the Waffen-SS an actual wing of the Nazi Party, you know, actual Nazis) in Operation Nordwind and other engagements. So what have Leftists today done to fight actual Nazis as opposed to their imaginary Nazis.
Yeah excuse me while I laugh my head off at Leftists calling views held by de Gaulle (refusing to associate the French Republic with the atrocities of the French State, declaring that the Vichy regime was "not France") as "being a Nazi".
What ever it's worth, I am getting sick and damn tired of this culture of guilt that the Left likes to push on people who aren't brown on black. Between the purges and trials carried out while the GPRF was in power, and subsequent trials under the Fourth and Fifth Republics many of Vichy authorities who actually carried out the Nazi's policies have been imprisoned or executed. Is it regrettable that some of them escaped judgement well into the 1990s? It most certainly is. But if there's any fault to be found with the Fifth Republic it's in dragging it's feet to bring these collaborationist to justice, not for the actual acts committed by another government.
Basically what I'm trying to say is, "you didn't do it, so you have nothing to feel guilty about." My family comes from the Philippines, should I be resentful at Spain and the United States for what they did to my ancestors? No, that would be stupid, the people that carried out the wrong are all dead (though contemporary Leftists would probably encourage me to still be angry at the "evil White colonialists"). And soon within the next few decades, if it hasn't come to pass already, the Vichy officials who carried out Nazi policies, who haven't already been executed, will be all dead. When that comes to pass, then what? Will the Left continue to hold citizens of the Fifth Republic responsible for the actions of the French State? People with absolutely nothing to do with it? People who very may well be children and grandchildren who fought under the Cross of Lorainne? Sure maybe there would be some argument if the Fourth and subsequent Fifth Republics were continuations of the French State, but they were continuations of the GPRF and by extension the Third Republic.
At least with Japan the argument is there that the current State of Japan is a reformed continuation of the Empire of Japan, given that the Emperor Jimmu's line continues to reign and the current constitution is technically a heavily altered (granted it's been altered beyond recognition) Meiji Constitution. There's some basis there to keep hounding the current Japanese government for apologies and reparations for WWII. But the Fifth Republic doesn't even have that level of ties with the French State.
Should the atrocities of the French State be forgotten about? No, certainly not. But on the same token, there is no need for self-flagellation and assuming the sins of another, Jesus already did that for all of us. Did you round up Jews and put them on a train to the ovens? No? Then stop hitting yourself, feel free to flagellate and hit the guy who actually carried out the deed though.
Do I support Le Pen, no not really, I'm largely neutral towards her the way I was largely neutral towards Donald Trump. I'm sure she's wrong on many issues and might just be pandering to an enraged voting bloc with populist rhetoric. But in this regard, I don't really see anything wrong that she said. I just see more of the Left looking for something to complain about like they've been doing in the US. Though I do also find it funny that the Left is supporting a banker over a woman in this final round of election in France, how many of the same people in the Left in the US who back Macron were the same people that were saying if you didn't back Hillary you hate women?
